Curse

AndrewSX · Feb 25, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

In fact, where's the only place where Eles can be used as main damage dealers in HM?
DoA. Because Lightbringer title give what eles need: +40% damage.

Essence Snow · Feb 25, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Say what you will, the numbers still stand. Ele's may not be quite on par, but they are certainly still a viable party option. I've used 'em with great success in some of the hardest locations in the game, and that's with Hero AI and no PvE skills.

Unfortunately your numbers don't stand due to various HM armor levels. That is the entire point you seem to be missing. You cannot count the same dps for every foe in a group, unless they are all the same profession, when elemental dmg is effected by armor (which doesn't happen often at all). Ergo...every group for every area will have different non-generic calculations for elemental dmg.

Maybe a better outlet for your time (other than crunching numbers that don't apply), would be to lvl an elementalist and experience the the major impact that armor lvls have on elemental damage.

LifeInfusion · Feb 25, 2011, 03:18 PM // 15:18

lol, @Kaida, so this whole time you don't even have an ele?

You have never experienced the grueling pain of casting a 2-3 cast time spell that hits for 30-70% damage and recharges in 30 seconds getting interrupted by Cry of Frustration and getting down 25-25 energy (heats, churning earth, eruption). That's why you think ele damage (on paper) does good damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You mean in the same situations as the ones you've been running calcs for? How about:

12 + 1 + 3 = 16 Fire Magic
12 + 3 = 15 Energy Storage

Arcane Echo
Arcane Mimicry
Savannah Heat [E]
Intensity
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
Mark of Rodgort
Snow Storm
Glyph of Elemental Power

So I have an ally casting Weaken Armour as well as holding Echo for me, allowing me to cast 3 Savannah Heats in a row. Each Savannah Heat does 360 damage to AL 60 target over 5s, or about 254.5 damage to AL 80 targets over 5s. I have 3 of them, so I deal 753.5 damage. I hit 5 targets, so I deal 3767.5 damage. Then I have Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, which does 15 * 5 * 5 = 375 per Savannah Heat and another 15 * 5 * 5 = 375 for Snow Storm, contributing 375 * 4 = 1500 damage. Snow Storm does 141 * 5 = 705 damage. Intensity does 81 * 4 = 324 damage in an AoE because I'm pro and use it directly on the last tick of Savannah Heat, and of course Mark of Rodgort does 14 * 5 DPS for 72 DPS.

So I have total 3767.5 + 1500 + 705 + 324 damage / 10s + 72 DPS = 701.65 DPS. ****, I am good.

Really ... what are these so-called "hardest locations in the game", and what exact builds did you bring (+ henchmen, or, if you went with other players, what did they bring)?

And the problem here is MoP still does more at the upper limit. 10 minions x42=420 before EBVAS + spearing. Not that it matters, because without all the aftercasts on all 3 SHs nothing is going to live more than 2-4 seconds vs a MoP properly supported.

From other thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@LifeInfusion:
I'm not speaking at current SF damage, I'm speaking at future "buffed" SF damage, or any Ele skills for that matter. It's pretty safe to say the Elementalist isn't going to match Mesmers or Ritualists for utility, so in order to compete, they would need increased damage. Stack enough Ele's and mobs are going to explode. At that point, who cares if you are interrupting/blinding/knocking down the mobs. This would make Rits and Mesmers useless again, starting the cycle over.

I don't think slapping on more damage is healthy for the game. It would just mean tons of PVE splits. I'd rather have 3-4 skills in each line with <10 recharge that do respectable damage under Intensity. That means +40% damage or 15% armor penetration on Intensity with 3-4 procs , maintaining current functionality.

Even in its current iteration in Normal mode, air eles need a 1.21x damage multiplier (i.e. 64 armor targets after cracked armor) to reach Keystone damage vs 3 targets, with 6 slots + glyph (Invoke+ chain lightning + orb + intensity + attunement + aura of restoration) leaving a res or what have you.

If Mesmer recharge is toned down it'd be more even. Right now, there's nothing you can do with an ele in HM that will match Clumsiness on 5.34 recharge + Wandering eye on 8 recharge + Signet of clumsiness on 8 recharge... because there simply is enough spells that have low enough cooldown (and cast) that do AoE damage >60 , never mind the 90+ from Clumsiness/Wandering Eye. Clumsiness in itself is ridiculous: it's only hindered by the 10 energy that makes it effective 7.5 second recharge unless you have energy management, otherwise it's 13DPS armor ignoring AOE with interrupts.

Nerf the mesmer you say? Clumsiness to 12 or 15 recharge. Wandering eye to 15cooldown. Signet of Clumsiness to 10 (like Unnatural signet) or even 12 and less damage (40 like Dervishes' enchants would be okay). It'd still be usable on Keystone builds, actually because as long as the mantra of signets' 30-36% reduction recharges Signet of clumsiness faster than 9 seconds for the Keystone chain you're golden. i.e. 9/0.667=13.5 ; 9/0.7=12.
Ineptitude damage nerf to 120.

16Illusion, 11FC with these changes:

115/(10+1.34+0.75)=9.51 <-- 15cooldown on wandering eye
97/(8+1.34+0.75)=9.6 <-- clumsiness to 12
ineptitude 120/(10+0.67+0.75)= 10.51DPS/mob <-- ineptitude reduced
sig of clumsiness 40/(10+0.167+0.75)= 3.664DPS/mob <-- sig of clumsiness to 10
= total 33.3DPS armor ignoring, which is reasonable for a Utility profession using 4 of 8 slots and 4 slots available for energy management to make Clumsiness usable i.e. Arcane Conundrum, Power drain, Leech Signet, waste not want not

Raising clumsiness to 15 recharge would make it 8.02DPS , which is a loss of ~1.6DPS.

Total energy strain before e-management:
Wandering eye: 5/(10+1.34+0.75)=0.414e/sec
Clumsiness: 10/(8+1.34+0.75)=0.99e/sec
Ineptitude: 10/(10+0.67+0.75)=0.876e/sec
sig of clumsiness:0
= 2.28e/sec
-4/3 e/sec base regen = 0.947 e/sec deficit (~3 pips)

Power drain , 11 FC, 9 Inspiration = +14 net , 20 base recharge = 13.3 recharge <-- only one interrupt every 14s needed!

Leech signet = +10 net, 20 recharge = 0.5e/sec
Waste Not, want Not = +6 net, 15 base recharge = 10 recharge <-- 0.6e/sec

Arcane conundrum = (7* enemies -10 cost) net , 20 base recharge = 13.3 recharge <-- (7*E-10)/13.3 energy/sec , just 3.3=4 targets for 1e/sec ; 4.1 for current state of 1.4e/sec

Current state:
5/(8+1.34+0.75)=0.50 e/sec
10/(5.34+1.34+0.75)= 1.35 e/sec
10/(10+0.67+0.75)= 0.88 e/sec
0/(8+0.167+0.75)= 0
= 2.73 e/sec total
-4/3 e/sec base regen = 1.4 e/sec deficit

Keystone adjustments:
Keystone signet: damage lowered to +40 at 14... instead of +57
signet of clumsiness to 12 recharge (as above) , lowered to 40 damage

40*6 keystone +40*2 sig of clumsiness +47*2 unnatural sig every 10 seconds = 367/10 seconds=36.7DPS AOE before Strength of honor

+2 more signets with no AOE; if using signet of corruption then +30 max damage/10 seconds = 3DPS (it can't be used twice in 10 seconds even with mantra of inscriptions or it'd be *2)

energy is not a limiting factor, so forget that... symbolic celerity = 15 energy every 30 seconds if used on recharge = 0.5 energy/sec but it lasts 58 [email protected] Fast Casting = 15/58=0.25 energy/sec ; mantra of inscriptions = 10 energy/20 seconds = 0.5 energy/sec giving you a total 0.75 energy/sec (2.25 pips) and that's before stuff like Signet of Corruption and Castigation signet giving you 9 to 20 energy every 10 seconds...

Energy Storage is NOT energy management

Searing Flames, before Glowing Gaze, Glyph but after attunement + Aura of restor.
Searing Flames= 3.252e/sec
Glowing Gaze= 0.271e/sec (actually +7/7.38 after +5 net return so = +0.949e/sec)
Liquid Flame=0.381e/sec
Fire attunement=0.130e/sec (negligible even if cast on recharge)
= 2.684e/sec without fire attunement recast cost
- glyph best case scenario of -30 and +14 = 1.39
=1.294 e/sec deficit

Invoke, Chain Lightning + Orb after attunement + Aura of restor.
Invoke= 0.678e/sec
Chain=0.762e/sec
Orb=1.394e/sec
= 2.834e/sec deficit
Intensity = +5e/10sec = 0.5e/sec
= 3.334e/sec without air attunement recast cost
-4/3 base regen = 2.007e/sec
- glyph worst case scenario of -20 and +12 = 1.01
= 0.99 e/sec deficit (0.5e/sec) without Intensity

20 to 30 reduction by Glyph of Lesser Energy every 31.75 seconds (0.63 to 0.944e/sec but counting attunement and AoR returns which give +12 to +14 total = 1.01 to 1.39e/sec)

Factoring in Elemental Lord, which leaves us 0 free slots on our Air ele (after Intensity) and 1 free slot on our searing Flames assuming you don't use Mark of rodgort / Meteor.

Searing Flames 2.846
Glowing Gaze 0.136 --> +8/7.38
Liquid Flame 0.305
=2.067e/sec
-4/3 base regen = 0.734 e/sec (use Glyph or there's no hope)

Lightning Orb is terrible when used on recharge on a bar with Invoke + Chain Lightning... with Invoke + Chain Lightning you roughly break even (1.440e/sec with AoR + attune - 4/3 base regen = 0.1067 e/sec deficit) without using Glyph.

The ele needs 3-4 energy management skills to keep up so it's not much better off, since 2-3 are strippable and they don't do anything special unlike the mesmer energy management (arcane conundrum is basically AOE daze).

Xiaquin · Feb 25, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I don't think slapping on more damage is healthy for the game. It would just mean tons of PVE splits. I'd rather have 3-4 skills in each line with <10 recharge that do respectable damage under Intensity. That means +40% damage or 15% armor penetration on Intensity with 3-4 procs , maintaining current functionality.

But would you want to see Intensity be the key? Given it's a PvE skill, what do you say to those who don't have Nightfall?

LifeInfusion · Feb 25, 2011, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

But would you want to see Intensity be the key? Given it's a PvE skill, what do you say to those who don't have Nightfall?

I'd want Intensity to be a big part of it. People without Nightfall already sell themselves short, since they don't have heroes. Most people get Nightfall because of heroes. Without Nightfall I'd not make an Ele period: Searing Flames is in NF, B-surge (PVP), Mind Blast, Ether Prism (PVP), Invoke, Ebon Hawk (for stoning combos), Flame Djinn's Haste (PVP), Freezing gust (PVP), Glowing ice, Glowing ice, glowstone, Liquid Flame,Savannah Heat (HA PVP),Stoneflesh Aura (Earth ele obby tank farmers).

When I made my ele it was in the days of Ether Prodigy + Heal Party spam with B-flash + Lightning orb , chain lightning was used in air spike. Fire was only glyph of renewal+meteor shower/firestorm/searing heat/Incendiary Bonds/Phoenix/Fireball. The other option was Rodgort spam with Ele attunement. In PVE I actually ran ER smiter with 0 recharge Draw conditions + Balthazar's Aura, Zealot's Fire didn't -1 energy and it did about 40 fire damage IIRC. The only real other damage was Spiteful Spirit. Times have changed.

With Intensity buffed to do +40% damage (i.e. stacks with cracked armor vs 100 armor), then a few skills in each line with <10 recharge that do respectable AOE damage so that you can get 3 casts off and Conjures adding +20 armor ignoring damage Eles could be in the same zone as Illusion mesmers are right now. (Unlike EBSOH, only on cast rather than per hit to buff those single-hit skills)

Water has Rust, but you'd never use that with Intensity because [email protected] is not going to do anything special when Intensity does 50% of that. You could probably use Intensity with Shatterstone, but the 15 energy is lame. If Conjures added +20 then Rust would do 94 which is okay if it were armor ignoring (every 10 seconds since 1+0.75+8=9.75). Mirror of ice sort of has that functionality, adding + damage to one target, but it's 15 energy and elite. Given nonelites water hexes peak at ~85-90 damage, Mirror of ice pushes that to ~130 armor-reduced.

The recent change to Dervishes gives me a bit of false hope, since Aura slicer is another AOE Cracked armor source as well as Rending Aura, Staggering Force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

@ Life Infusion - I like some of your ideas about Intensity combined with some lowering of skill recharge times. However, I fear that given Anet's current workload, the best we can hope for is a quick and easily coded rework to Intensity.

That's why I'm suggesting they tie it to ES, make it easily maintainable for ele primaries and allow it to convert ele spell damage to shadow (or holy) armour ignoring damage.

The current iteration, even when linked to ES doesn't do much. You need to crank out 80-90+ damage after armor for it to not be a waste of time (~190 in its 1 spell per 10s).

A flat +40% damage on top, would mean 1.5*1.4=2.1x armor reduced damage , which is the same as a 10 recharge AOE. For AOEs it'd be 1.5*1.4+1=3.1x armor reduced damage.

16 air Invoke on 80 armor cracked, for example 0.5*1.4*1.32*106=0.924*106=98 damage on all nearby and +106*1.32=140 damage x3 targets

16 air chain lightning on 80 armor cracked for example = 0.5*1.4*1.32*90=83.2 on all nearby + 90*1.32=119 x3 targets

16 air orb on 80 armor , for example 0.5*1.4*1.32=0.924x damage on all nearby =98 damage, +106*1.32=140 damage x1 target

100 nearby AOE x3-4 procs every 10 seconds is reasonable... it's +30-40DPS

Searing Flames could take a hit to 3 recharge or 80 damage @16 with lengthened burning of 9-12s if that's the case. (248 total after Intensity = 124 effective +burn). Even with no change: 0.5*1.4*106=0.7*106= 74.2 nearby + 106 nearby = 180 nearby.

(180*3 + 1 unbuffed of 106) /10 -106/7 = 49.5DPS

Mouse at Large · Feb 25, 2011, 06:29 PM // 18:29

@ Life Infusion - I like some of your ideas about Intensity combined with some lowering of skill recharge times. However, I fear that given Anet's current workload, the best we can hope for is a quick and easily coded rework to Intensity.

That's why I'm suggesting they tie it to ES, make it easily maintainable for ele primaries and allow it to convert ele spell damage to shadow (or holy) armour ignoring damage.

UnChosen · Feb 25, 2011, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

But would you want to see Intensity be the key? Given it's a PvE skill, what do you say to those who don't have Nightfall?

The problem is the monsters. The game has way too many Elementalist bosses casting an entire bar of nukes with "infinite" energy and 2x faster cast time that would get even more powerful if the ele's skills are just buffed straight.

The buffing of Mesmers and Rits didn't affect the monsters as much because their armor ignoring damage scales better when players have normal armor anyways.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 25, 2011, 06:47 PM // 18:47

@Jeydra:
I've run just about anything you can think of, and everything you can't. I've even taken a Searing Flames NECRO through said areas as a joke (with a few buds that time though). As far as what locations, anywhere but DoA (Slaver's, The Deep, Urgoz, UW, FoW, etc.). Most recently (which still isn't that recently), I've seemed content on taking a SF Ele, E/Mo Prot, and Dom Mes as heroes through the WiK content. I've even found the SF Ele working better than an Illusion Mes in some instances. I still can't figure out why.

Did you factor in the downtime on A.Echo and A.Mimicry? Also, you have 5 seconds before scatter, just like the MoP. Got you!

@Essence:
That's why I used a baseline to estimate average damage. I didn't even count an Intensity + Rodgort's (Invo.) opener. How can you say the numbers don't matter? Those will be the same numbers that I'll experience even when I do level them. They we're taken straight from Balth's Isle.

@LifeInfusion:
I used to Minion Master (not bomber) back in the pre-cap days. I know the pain of losing 25 Energy/3 Seconds through each interruption. Granted I still had the energy engine (Soul Reaping) but not the high max energy cap, so it sometimes slowed things down.

So, giving the Ele moderate spammable damage will make them better than the Mes (who currently has moderate spammable damage WITH utility) how? This is the issue; the Ele's role has already been taken. Maybe we'll keep em on par with each other and just have overlap?

@UnChosen:
"The game has way too many Elementalist bosses casting an entire bar of nukes with "infinite" energy and 2x faster cast time that would get even more powerful if the ele's skills are just buffed straight."
It's not like the game is very hard, next to a few locations (..uh... DoA? Maybe?). I, for one, welcome our new Ele Boss Damage.

LifeInfusion · Feb 25, 2011, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@LifeInfusion:
I used to Minion Master (not bomber) back in the pre-cap days. I know the pain of losing 25 Energy/3 Seconds through each interruption. Granted I still had the energy engine (Soul Reaping) but not the high max energy cap, so it sometimes slowed things down.

So, giving the Ele moderate spammable damage will make them better than the Mes (who currently has moderate spammable damage WITH utility) how? This is the issue; the Ele's role has already been taken. Maybe we'll keep em on par with each other and just have overlap?

I used to MM back in the pre-minion cap days as well. There was no soul reaping limit (the 3 per 15 seconds thing we have now) so unless Glyph of Lesser energy recharges in 2 seconds... there's no comparison.

If mesmers were hit to do 30-40DPS + utility interrupt on attack/ AoE interrupt in adjacent and eles buffed to do 50-60DPS in nearby with attune + AoR + Invoke + chain lightning + intensity + conjure we'd have a chance of eles being used since you have 2 free skill slots.

We're assuming Intensity gives 3-4 procs of armor ignoring nearby AoE per 10 seconds, so if you do 70*1.4=98 after armor reduction (i.e. 100 armor with cracked armor and 100 base damage, no armor penetration) Intensity gives +15DPS which is similar to one of the illusion magic spam skills. You just need 3 spells that will put out 100 base damage and recharge fast enough to have 3 of them in 10 seconds...

Conjure Frost +20
Rust (currently 8 recharge) ~70 *0.707+20=69.5 *1.4 intensity = 97
Deep Freeze (currently 15 recharge) ~80*0.707+20=76.6 *1.4 intensity = 108
Ice Spikes (currently 10 recharge) ~80*0.707+20=76.56 *1.4 intensity = 108
Ele attunement
Aura of Restor
Intensity +40% , +50% nearby --> 75*1.4=105 so 53Damage nearby
Glyph/Glowing Ice/Snow storm (14DPS vs 100 armor with cracked armor)/Other (e-management)

eles can have utility too. This would easily put out 31DPS if Ice Spikes + Deep Freeze recharged fast enough , +45 damage if standing in EBSOH (4.5DPS) and another +75 with Snowstorm + EBSOH (7.5DPS).

Earth doesn't get a boost here because the only non-DOT, nonPBAOE it has is Earthquake.

15 fire :
Fireball =112*0.707+20=99 / Liquid Flame (currently 15 recharge)=112*0.707+20=99
Phoenix (currently 10 recharge)=90*0.707+20=84 ; 163 if adjacent
Rodgort's Invocation (8 recharge)=120*0.707+20=105
Conjure Flame +20
Intensity
Fire attunement
Mind Blast
Aura of Restoration

99*1.4*1.5=208
84-->176
105-->221
=605 damage per intensity chain = 60.5DPS

Air (probably best use of intensity):
Invoke+orb =106 on anything with 80 armor after cracked
chain = 90 on anything with 80 armor after cracked
air attunement
aura of restoration
glyph
Intensity
free skill slot

(106+90+106)*1.4*0.5=211 damage AoE /10 seconds = +21DPS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

How is it no comparison? While the SR cap was unlimited, you we're still only pulling from a pool of 40-50 energy, tops. That's a 2 spell cast buffer. Getting hit with interruptions still hurt when trying to upkeep an army.

Ele's will never have Utility as long as Attunements remain generic to Elemental Spell lines, or Ele spells stick to doing primarily damage. The only real tool Ele's have at the moment are snares, and those are semi-laughable in PvE. Since Mesmer's have the offensive utility, Rit's have something in between, Ele's should probably get defensive utility (more than just wards).

Also, you're going to want Intensity to drop spell cast time. Having good DPS won't matter if it takes 6+ seconds to use everything. If not, skills like Churning Earth will still be useless in the DPS department.

Spell cast time doesn't matter as long as they don't take 3+ seconds and recharge hovers around 6-8 seconds (Invoke/chain lightning). i.e. for Fireball: 2+0.75= 2.75+7=9.75 and Rust: 1+8+0.75=9.75.

i.e. casting: Invoke = (1+0.75) + chain (2+0.75) + orb (2+0.75) = 7.25sec

even for double echoed Fireball/Orb/chain (lol) = (2+0.75)*3=8.25sec

It's at 3 seconds that it's not doable anymore: (3+0.75)*3=11.25sec

10seconds - 3 times aftercast is 7.75seconds total cast time (2x 2 seconds + 1x 3 seconds is doable)

If it's 4 procs in 10 seconds then the spells can't be 2 cast, they need to be 1 cast (10-4*0.75=7 so 1.75sconds per spell or 1sec max since there's no 1.75 cast).

Something like Searing flames has effective base 2.46 cycling time =2*(1-0.36+0.36*0.5)+1*(1-0.36+0.5*0.36). There needs to be diversification, it can't be one spell pulling all the weight.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 25, 2011, 07:39 PM // 19:39

How is it no comparison? While the SR cap was unlimited, you we're still only pulling from a pool of 40-50 energy, tops. That's a 2 spell cast buffer. Getting hit with interruptions still hurt when trying to upkeep an army.

Ele's will never have Utility as long as Attunements remain generic to Elemental Spell lines, or Ele spells stick to doing primarily damage. The only real tool Ele's have at the moment are snares, and those are semi-laughable in PvE. Since Mesmer's have the offensive utility, Rit's have something in between, Ele's should probably get defensive utility (more than just wards).

Also, you're going to want Intensity to drop spell cast time. Having good DPS won't matter if it takes 6+ seconds to use everything. If not, skills like Churning Earth will still be useless in the DPS department.

Xiaquin · Feb 25, 2011, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I'd want Intensity to be a big part of it. People without Nightfall already sell themselves short, since they don't have heroes. Most people get Nightfall because of heroes. Without Nightfall I'd not make an Ele period

There are heroes in GWEN, but that and the other exclusive skills are beside the point. I just can't agree on a "fix" for a profession that means (for some) having to buy another game. When I made an elementalist, there was no SF, there was Meteor Shower and in PvE [Echo+AE+Fireball] was considered a good build.

I'd rather have a core fix or nothing, I'm growing tired of relying on title skills, which were a slippery slope to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The problem is the monsters. The game has way too many Elementalist bosses casting an entire bar of nukes with "infinite" energy and 2x faster cast time that would get even more powerful if the ele's skills are just buffed straight.

There are ways of dealing with elemental damage, let alone casters in general.

AndrewSX · Feb 25, 2011, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The buffing of Mesmers and Rits didn't affect the monsters as much because their armor ignoring damage scales better when players have normal armor anyways.

Two things about it:
1-If we'll have a real and decent ele update, remember that you have thousands ways to deal elemental damage. SY!(and anythig add armor), prots(Protective spirit says hi, same ST with Shelter) and, why not, wards.
2-I could agree on Mesmer(they're nasty, but the damage is armor-ignoring at least), but most of Rits damage is Lighting. Enjoy some 500ish Spirit Rifts sometimes

Haggis of Doom · Feb 25, 2011, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I strongly disagree with the whole philosophy behind making Intensity the key to ele pve dmg. It's lazy design, it's simplistic gameplay, and it keeps the heroes to ER (until that's nerfed). Eles already have an attunement glued to their bars, don't make it 2 skills.

That's part of why Aura of Holy Might was changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Having good DPS won't matter if it takes 6+ seconds to use everything.

Since we're min-maxing here, after 6 seconds (6s after balling that is, since casting your money skills before the ball doesn't make sense at all) a mega-organized party will already have killed most if not all the mob.

Mouse at Large · Feb 25, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I strongly disagree with the whole philosophy behind making Intensity the key to ele pve dmg. It's lazy design, it's simplistic gameplay, and it keeps the heroes to ER (until that's nerfed). Eles already have an attunement glued to their bars, don't make it 2 skills.

That's part of why Aura of Holy Might was changed.

Sadly, given the attitude of Anet to eles, I fear it's about the best we can hope for

LifeInfusion · Feb 25, 2011, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I strongly disagree with the whole philosophy behind making Intensity the key to ele pve dmg. It's lazy design, it's simplistic gameplay, and it keeps the heroes to ER (until that's nerfed). Eles already have an attunement glued to their bars, don't make it 2 skills.

That's part of why Aura of Holy Might was changed.

Since we're min-maxing here, after 6 seconds (6s after balling that is, since casting your money skills before the ball doesn't make sense at all) a mega-organized party will already have killed most if not all the mob.

Well if not Intensity, Eles would need major skill tweaks. Unless you start PVE splitting things, Ele skills with 1 cast time are what you want but there are few: Invoke, liquid flame, rust, thunderclap, searing flames.

Jeydra · Feb 26, 2011, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@Jeydra:
I've run just about anything you can think of, and everything you can't. I've even taken a Searing Flames NECRO through said areas as a joke (with a few buds that time though). As far as what locations, anywhere but DoA (Slaver's, The Deep, Urgoz, UW, FoW, etc.). Most recently (which still isn't that recently), I've seemed content on taking a SF Ele, E/Mo Prot, and Dom Mes as heroes through the WiK content. I've even found the SF Ele working better than an Illusion Mes in some instances. I still can't figure out why.

Did you factor in the downtime on A.Echo and A.Mimicry? Also, you have 5 seconds before scatter, just like the MoP. Got you!

Aye, and I've done WiK content with an empty skill bar. Hence I have proved that empty skill bars are good. I've also done CoF HM with empty skill bars on myself and all three of my heroes because my friend ran me through it with 600. ****, I'm good.

Why do I need to factor the downtime on Arcane Echo and Arcane Mimicry? Why do I need to consider scatter when you don't with SF? And don't tell me that "but SF has larger AoE than SH" when scatter means neither spell hits all their targets.

SF Eles work better than Illusion Mesmers because Illusion Mesmers are terrible, lol ... no surprises there.

Essence Snow · Feb 26, 2011, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@Essence:
That's why I used a baseline to estimate average damage. I didn't even count an Intensity + Rodgort's (Invo.) opener. How can you say the numbers don't matter? Those will be the same numbers that I'll experience even when I do level them. They we're taken straight from Balth's Isle.

Isle of the Nameless is NOT...let me repeat NOT equal to PvE HM. You cannot simply transfer numbers from the Master of Damage and use them to justify what an armor sensitive skill will do in HM PvE.

Since you have SF unlocked on your necro..I'll notion you to a test.

1) Load up SF on your necro raise you fire to 12
2) Go to the Isle of the Nameless and test it on Master of Damages
3) Go to UW in HM and use SF on a Bladed Attaxe (sp?) or any lvl 26+ foe
4) Compare your numbers and cry

Intensity is not worth a skill slot on most bars so it is irrelevant...hence the reason why the recent change to it was not welcomed with open arms.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 26, 2011, 03:10 AM // 03:10

@Essence:
My tests were on the AL dummies, not the master of damage.

@Jeydra:
Uh, so why did you ask me where I've run these builds if you're just going to bash the answer?
"Really ... what are these so-called "hardest locations in the game", and what exact builds did you bring (+ henchmen, or, if you went with other players, what did they bring)?"

The downtime on AE and AM will effect the DPS you put out on Mobs when the skill transformations are over. You need to consider scatter because Sav. Heat does it's DPS based on one location. Searing Flames follows its targets because it's done over multiple casts.

And currently, Illusion Mesmers put out very respectable levels of damage.
I'll quote LifeInfusion here:
"Realistically, 16 Illusion, 11FC, 9 Inspir
115 on wandering eye with 8 effective recharge, 1.34 cast = 12.31DPS/mob
97 Clumsiness with 5.34 recharge, 1.34 cast = 14.52 DPS/mob
142 Ineptitude with 10 recharge, 0.67 cast = 13.31 DPS/mob
63 Signet of Clumsiness with 8 recharge, 0.167 cast (only reason why this is decent is because it doesn't tap into energy, casts in <1/4, and it knocks down; FC doesn't affect signet recharges) = 7.71DPS/mob

47.85DPS/mob x 5= 239.25 DPS vs 5 mobs , plus utility of interrupts and blind/KD."

Essence Snow · Feb 26, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@Essence:
My tests were on the AL dummies, not the master of damage.

Again...Isles of the Nameless is NOT = to HM PvE. I hope you realize that 100al is not the max al in the game. Hence why your stats are in accurate....u are using the wrong als.

Again test things where it matters b4 trying to argue about them. Before arguing anything else for that matter go ACTUALLY test in HM PvE...not at isle of the nameless.

Again your arguements carry no weight, specially if you are unwilling to accurately test things and insist on using irrelevant numbers.

You have said you don't even play elementalist..yet you continue to advocate that they have decent dmg capacities as they pertain to HM PvE. How can anyone take you seriously if you won't even test where it matters?

Please just go test it b4 arguing any further...you will be doing yourself a favor by not digging your hole any deeper.

Jeydra · Feb 26, 2011, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Because I want to know what you and your friend(s) were running, read what I wrote.

Your ideas about scatter are beyond retarded. Are you implying monsters scatter together? That they actually stay balled while running?? That you can somehow chase them in spite of their HM movespeed buff and catch them balled while running?? Crazy. This is the kind of argument that makes it seem like Water snares are generally worth bringing.

Wake me up when LifeInfusion posts something other than calculations. I thought I proved via my 700-DPS build that calculations are stupid. One SH Elementalist does three times the DPS of an SF Elementalist? Even I know that's impossible. "But the math proves they do!". Yeah. Right.

I'm so going to shoot myself in the head if I post again in this thread, unless something major changes. It's just getting too silly.